But no, my ageing eyes were deceiving me. The actual headline was:
govandpubaffairs (@scotsman.com)and the contents were indeed suitable for a family audience.
But not perhaps for an audience of those southern observers who think that Scotland is some kind of socialist hellhole, so unlike a conservative England that would be a bastion of laissez-faire economics were it not unfairly ruled by an alien Scottish Raj.
The problem is, you see, that it turns out that we're actually just about the same:
In fact the differences between the Scottish and the English on social democracy versus free markets are generally pretty small. Public attitudes surveys sponsored by the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) over the last few years show that the Scots see themselves as more left-wing than the English see themselves, but only marginally.The article goes on to ask why Scots voted for devolution and would do so again in even larger numbers if the resulting legislation is unlikely to be too different from that enacted at Westminster:On a scale of 1-5 (with 1 the most left-wing and 5 the most right-wing) the English marked themselves right in the middle at 2.5, the Scots a fraction to the left, at 2.4.
When it comes to issues such as taxation and inequality, the story is much the same. About the same proportion of English and Scottish citizens - 60 per cent or so - agree that we should be taxed more if the proceeds are spent on health, education and social benefits. The English and the Scots also agree that ordinary working people do not get a fair share of the nation's wealth. In fact, the Welsh and Northern Irish think much the same.
So devolution is not about doing things differently to the English; it is not about expressing policy preferences different to those held by the English. But people in Scotland still want more of it. That suggests that devolution is more about getting ownership of the political process than pursuing any great difference of policy objectives.I think that's absolutely correct. As a hard-core libertarian I believe that almost everything done by politicians in both Edinburgh and London is wrong. But given that these parasites exist, it only seems fair that we get some of the jobs and money that the state machine artificially moves to capital cities.
6 comments:
Comments made on previous template:
Bill (Scotland)
dearieme
I must admit I have often thought precisely the same thing; can't be doing with the attitude of victimhood that some people seem to display.
21 June 2005, 14:52:23 GMT+01:00
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Bill (Scotland)
Hello Adolf
Thanks for your wishes
You would probabbly be wrong about my possible ultimate destination; whilst places such as Australia and New Zealand have their attractions (Canada - too cold!), I think it more likely that either France or Spain are the main candidates; I happen to speak almost flawless French so that may eventually win out.
21 June 2005, 14:50:47 GMT+01:00
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dearieme
Part of the problem with Scotland is how Irishised it's become, in the teaching of history and so on. Viewing your ancestors as ineffective victims while history was something done to them by "The English" is not only absurdly inaccurate, but bloody pernicious.
21 June 2005, 12:30:49 GMT+01:00
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Adolf Jacobs
"I'm not one of the 'Jock MacMoaners' (how long did it take you to think that one up Adolf), so will probably be one of the ones quitting Scotland when it finally adopts full separation, or is finally forced into it by an exasperated English population; but I won't be heading for England, either, let me tell you!"
Bon Voyage Bill!
Somewhere European or Anglo Saxon? I am inclined to think you would be more at home in the latter.
20 June 2005, 17:02:04 GMT+01:00
Adolf Jacobs
"Adolf could you please explain why Scots politics are inherently European - culturally I would suggest that what you consider Anglo-Saxon political culture philosophically owes more to Adam Smith & David Hume than to any Englishman."
The continental tradition of power coming down from the top is a legacy of the Romans. Not only was their empire a military despotism, it was also peculiarly distrustful of any form of self-help, much less self-government, on the part of its subjects. Not unlike socialism in Scotland today with its tendency for top down solutions and state control of pretty much anything it can get its hands on.
In the English tradition, power rises from below. The principle is enshrined in Magna Carta (which is the written constitution that’s not supposed to exist). That agreement of 1215 was the chief defence against unjust and arbitrary rule in England. It established for the first time that the power of the monarch could be limited by a written compact. There is no such mainstream tradition of negotiated and limited power in Europe.
The reason English government has been superior to Europe’s is that there has been a clear recognition of government’s limitations, with habeas corpus and absolute property rights. There has also been acknowledgement that ordinary people should be involved in government, from local councils to juries. These concepts are alien to the continental tradition of which Scotland is a part. The heinous Land Reform bill, which effectively nationalises land, is the best example. It would never have been passed at Westminster.
If you look at the way in which many townships in New England govern themselves by direct popular democracy, it reflects precisely how the boroughs and shires of Anglo-Saxon England governed themselves by convened meetings of free men. Contrast this with Scotland and its Lanarkshire Mafia and ruling cliques which couldn’t give a toss about public opinion.
However look at these figures here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/scotland/4430659.stm
The survey suggests 19% want to keep taxation low, compared with 76% who want more for Scotland to spend on schools and hospitals, even if taxes were to increase.
Regarding pensions, 31% of those questioned said more should be saved for old age, while 61% want higher state pensions, funded by tax.
On the economy, 15% want to see faster growth, as opposed to 79% who call for an equitable share of wealth.
John Curtice, professor of politics at Strathclyde University, said the poll highlighted a number of issues.
He told BBC Scotland's news website: "Scotland is more concerned about the welfare state and social justice than it is about economic growth and cutting taxation.
"To that degree I believe the poll seems to confirm the image that has always been given that Scotland is more concerned with the public sector and what it can get from giving as opposed to somewhere that is trying to enhance the private sector."
20 June 2005, 16:56:30 GMT+01:00
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Bill (Scotland)
Neil,
I don't like PR (certainly either of the two systems I am familiar with) because I feel completely disconnected from the people who are supposed to be representing me. It so happens I know one of our local (list - i.e. PR) MSPs personally, so I am probably luckier than most, but for most people PR means being even more distant than is often the case with elected national representatives. I've also met two of our Scottish MEPs several times and visited Strasbourg (as part of a group) as their guest, so again I am probably a lot luckier than most people whom I strongly suspect would have great difficulty naming their MEPs, far less having a personal acquaintance with any.
Apart from the 'distance' factor, politically speaking, some of the list MSPs for some of the political parties have never been elected directly by anybody - they simply have had the 'pull' to get themselves high enough up their Party's 'list' so that they were almost guaranteed a seat as their Party 'placemen'; there is no real accountability for such people. I could have said all this before, but I assumed you were aware of all the pro-con arguments for PR, just as I did you the courtesy of assuming you were too (which I had assumed you would have reciprocated).
I am, incidentally, one of those basically Conservative-leaning types who is strongly pro-European so none of my comments about the EU should be regarded as being anti-EU in any way. The EU is going thru a rough enough patch at present without me adding to its woes. My 'logic' for this is relatively simple; as a Scot I have been habituated all my life to Scotland being an equal, but obviously junior, partner in the UK with England & Wales plus NI, so it is not, philosophically, such a major leap to being perfectly happy to see the UK as a major part of a larger grouping such as the EU, when the other members are all fundamentally very similar to us in all the ways that matter to me. I lived in France for a number of years and, even with the current 'spat' going on between our two governments, it has always been a place I regard as pretty wonderful - I'm prepared to forgive an awful lot for a country that produces such good wine and cheese. Now I think I have contributed more than enough here - anyway there's a bottle of excellent Red Loire wine with my name on it for this evening
19 June 2005, 20:48:58 GMT+01:00
Neil Craig
Adolf could you please explain why Scots politics are inherently European - culturally I would suggest that what you consider Anglo-Saxon political culture philosophically owes more to Adam Smith & David Hume than to any Englishman. I would accept that Scotland has a more radical political tradition going back to us being bible reading Presbyterians & England being C of E & that that combined with us once have more heavy industry lead to a fairly (but only fairly) strong Labour movement but this appears to me to be at worst irrelevant to the accustion of us being pro-Europe authoritarians.
Bill I do indeed believe in proportional representation for reasons given. You are perfectly entitled to prefer disproportionate representation, if that is the term, but the only reason you give is that "I don't like proportional representation" which is not itself persuasive.
19 June 2005, 19:25:13 GMT+01:00
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Bill (Scotland)
Hello Adolf
Apart from the snide tone you began your post with, I agree with most of what you write. Indeed if I were English the last part of your penultimate paragraph would be exactly my reaction, too. Fortunately I'm not one of the 'Jock MacMoaners' (how long did it take you to think that one up Adolf), so will probably be one of the ones quitting Scotland when it finally adopts full separation, or is finally forced into it by an exasperated English population; but I won't be heading for England, either, let me tell you!
19 June 2005, 18:43:08 GMT+01:00
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Adolf Jacobs
"I rather thought this was the kind of thing you were going to say; still not convinced, I'm afraid. What kind of reform of our electoral system would you envisage to make it more 'democratic'? Personally I don't like proportional representation, either as it operates in European elections, or as organised for part of the Scottish Parliament voting system"
Well tough cheese Billy boy, that ain't gonna happen (see above).
"Personally I would favour the kind of 'town hall' democracy that seems to exist in many parts of the US"
The United States politically follows the Anglo Saxon model to an even greater degree than England does. However (and again I direct you to previous posts), this won't be happening in Scotland.
"the irritation at the way Scottish MPs/Ministers can vote on devolved issues which won't affect their own constituencies - if I was English"
From the election of the new Tory leader later in the year you will start to see the development of an England First Tory party that will not be interested in pacifying the Celtic whingers with dollops of English cash to subsidise the lazy welfare loving Scots just to save the union.
When there is next a Tory government in Westminster and Jock MacMoaner goes with cap in one hand and list of grievances in the other looking for more cash to “save the union”, he is likely to be told to bugger off.
The Tories won the popular vote in England, its just the FPTP system doesn't reflect this, though a review of the boundaries is due. English Tories regard Scotland as a lost cause and from that you can assume the days of Barnett Free Lunches will be coming to an end.
19 June 2005, 15:11:45 GMT+01:00
Adolf Jacobs
One aspect of the 'Scottish/English psyches' that is not addressed by the Scotsman, I feel, is why Scotland's major city, Glasgow, has been ruled by a Labour administration for decades if the Scottish and English are not really so far apart in the left/right spectrum. Is the Scottish 'politcal class' even more disconnected from the average citizen than is the case in England?"
The reason is simple, and going into no detail, it is because English politics are Anglo-Saxon, and Scottish politics are European. That is why the Scottish political class is naturally more authoritarian and bring in legislation like the land reform bill, property rights are not important because state power is supreme. That is how things are done in Europe, and the coming of a Scottish Parliament means that is how things will be done in Scotland from now on.
19 June 2005, 14:56:14 GMT+01:00
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Adolf Jacobs
The idea that Scots are inherently socialist is an illusion caused by the fact that we keep electing socialists - not because we actually vote for them but because the system elects them anyway
So the fact that 3 out of 4 of the major parties (and both the minor parties and most of the independents)in the Scottish Parliament are socialists in no way contradicts your assertion that its the system wot done it governor, and that Scots really are not socialists at all?.
Sounds like someone is descending into Gerald Warner like depths of self-delusion.
19 June 2005, 14:50:12 GMT+01:00
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Bill (Scotland)
I rather thought this was the kind of thing you were going to say; still not convinced, I'm afraid. What kind of reform of our electoral system would you envisage to make it more 'democratic'? Personally I don't like proportional representation, either as it operates in European elections, or as organised for part of the Scottish Parliament voting system. Personally I would favour the kind of 'town hall' democracy that seems to exist in many parts of the US or the genuine power that citizens seem to have in Switzerland to call referenda. Until a better system is developed for us, I'd prefer to stick with FPTP.
Unfortunately you are correct about the bad feeling - there is still in Scotland the holdover of the 'Thatcher factor' (large parts of Scotland outside the central belt were traditionally Tory or Liberal until relatively recently) and now increasingly in England the irritation at the way Scottish MPs/Ministers can vote on devolved issues which won't affect their own constituencies - if I was English, living in England, I'd be quite annoyed by this.
19 June 2005, 14:24:27 GMT+01:00
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Neil Craig
The point is that we have a corrupt electoral system - thus when 39% of us voted Labour at the last elction they got 80% of the seats in Scotland.
People who just look at the results & not the way they are fixed see us as overwhelmingly socialist & see the south of England as similarly Tory. This illusion is responsible for an awful lot of bad feeling on both sides of the border.
The implication is that turning Britain into a democracy by introducing a democratic electoral system is essential for good governance & probably essential to keep the union.
19 June 2005, 12:11:23 GMT+01:00
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Bill (Scotland)
The idea that Scots are inherently socialist is an illusion caused by the fact that we keep electing socialists - not because we actually vote for them but because the system elects them anyway
I'd love to say that I understand what that means, but I'm afraid I do not. Assuming for a moment that the first part and the second part are not mutually contradictory, what are the implications for our 'democracy'?
18 June 2005, 20:45:35 GMT+01:00
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Neil Craig
Reform did a survey of national attitudes a couple of years ago & Scotland was about 3% to the left on most issues (except lower business taxes being a route to growth which suggests where we were about 10% to the right suggesting Scots know more about Ireland than English). This fits pretty well with Labour getting 36% in the UK & 39% in Scotland.
The idea that Scots are inherently socialist is an illusion caused by the fact that we keep electing socialists - not becausewe actually vote for them but because the system elects them anyway.
18 June 2005, 20:34:05 GMT+01:00
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