Sunday, 4 July 2004

Scottish Enterprise Party

I mentioned this new Scottish political party back in May. Now they have formally launched:
The right-of-centre Scottish Enterprise Party has been partly founded by disgruntled SNP supporters who feel it has moved too far to the left.
I would be interested to hear what Stuart Dickson has to say about this development.

Here is a link to the website.


David Farrer said...

Comments made on previous template:

Andrew Duffin (
I would seriously dispute the assertion that Saudi Arabia has generated vast wealth, or indeed any wealth at all. 
The Saudis enjoy a vast income, certainly, but this is due to the historical accident of them happening to camp on that particular bit of desert at the same time as someone else came along and found immense quantities of a scarce natural resource, of which the Saudis were then able to claim ownership. 
Left to themselves, I suspect they wouldn't even know the oil was there, and they would have remained, as they will be in the future, a bunch of impoverished and argumentative nomads. 
No, they haven't really created anything at all.

19 July 2004, 12:54:02 GMT+01:00
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Neil (
Fair enuff - I'll even give you a 2nd last word, taken from the 3rd post above, which I agree would be a good tactic: 
"The SNP seriously need to get the finger out and start explaining WHY Scots would benefit from independence"

11 July 2004, 10:53:11 GMT+01:00
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Stuart Dickson (
I didn't say all small countries are successful. I merely pointed out that every single one of our northern European neighbours is successful. 
The likelihood of Scotland being the sole exception is slim; and indeed would require a considerable weight of evidence from yourself. 
Neil, I get the feeling that we are increasingly talking just to each other, and perhaps David if he hasn't fallen asleep. 
We can re-cross swords in a fresher thread, I'm sure. 
(Surely self-respect in its own right is a worthwhile, tangible benefit of independence. God, I couldn't resist a final word. Very bad habit that.)

8 July 2004, 20:37:21 GMT+01:00
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Neil (
Oh for the days when every child born alive was either a little liberal or else a little conservative. 
May I suggest that -"We can so!" is not an entirely instructive justification for separatism - particularly when nobody said we couldn't, merely that you hadn't produced any solid reason why we should. 
To say that all small countries are successful if you omit those that arn't isn't evidence. 
Waiting only to wipe the blood of natives off my British Imperialist boots may I point out that the only slander I made of Ireland is to say that it is now a very successful country - not the ultimate insult. 
So, I ask again, please Miss could you get round to explaining what actual tangible benefits Scotland would get from separation?

8 July 2004, 19:49:35 GMT+01:00
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David Farrer (
"And Neil, you did not do your homework. If you proceed in this cavalier manner you will not be allowed to progress to Primary 7" 
I remember Primary 6, especially the time when there was a playground battle between "Tories" and "Labour". Now it's SNP v LibDem. How times change!

8 July 2004, 09:05:01 GMT+01:00
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David Farrer said...

Stuart Dickson (
Neil is being cheeky to the teacher. 
Once again you persist in comparing Scotland to 3rd-world, dictatorial basketcases, rather than to our near and dear, democratic neighbours. 
It is typical of unionist psychological warfare in opposition to demands for independence: 
-"Ye cannae dae it." 
To which I would respond: 
-"We can so!" 
I suppose that your logic is that if you tell people often enough that they are uniquely incompetent to run their own country, then they will eventually believe you. 
The Roman Empire and Saudi Arabia were 2 additional examples of dictatorships which created vast wealth, to add to YOUR example of Communist Chinese Hong Kong. 
I propose that Hong Kong, and my 2 additional examples, are extremely poor models for Scots to aspire to. 
Stop being a naughty boy. 
USA: independence from UK 1776. 
Canada, New Zealand and Australia too in C20th. All 4 with huge populations of emmigrant Scots. 
I choose reasonable models for an independent Scotland, like New Zealand and Denmark. 
You choose idiotic ones like Haiti and Burundi. 
I ask the reader to decide who is being more reasonable. 
Again typical of a British Imperialist to slander Ireland. The British persecute the island for 120 years, murder those demanding independence, cut off its industrial heart before granting independence to the poor rural half, and use it as an example of the futility of opposing the Empire. Well, the Scots just don't swallow that. 
(And Neil, you did not do your homework. If you proceed in this cavalier manner you will not be allowed to progress to Primary 7.)

8 July 2004, 08:57:45 GMT+01:00
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Neil (
"Young Neil" - why thank you that makes up for everything. 
Ruanda, Burundi, Haiti, Sierra Leone, Albania - I think I can match you on small countries that are not thereby economic successes. Equally the USA does not appear to be an entire basket case despite being united.  
A more interesting example is yours of Ireland which, as you point out, became independent in 1921, made serious pro-business reforms in 1989 & took off economically in 1991. If the very best the "nationalists" can offer is that the Scots economy could improve 70 years after independence I will choose supporting enterprise as a more useful option. 
Sorry for thinking the Roman Empire, Saudi & China were your examples - I must have been misled by the fact that you used them as examples.

7 July 2004, 22:05:10 GMT+01:00
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Stuart Dickson (
I re-iterate: " a precondition to economic growth is national self-worth and self-respect". Neil, you would have to be extremely illiberal to disagree with such a plain exposition of fact. Shame on you; and you a member of the Liberal Democratic Party! 
Evidence that independence creates wealth: 
Norway (independence 1905), Finland (ind 1917), Iceland (ind 1918), Lithuania (ind 1991), Latvia (ind 1991), Estonia (ind 1991), Sweden (ind 1809), Ireland (ind 1921), Netherlands (ind 1581), Denmark (ind C10th), Luxembourg (ind 1867). 
Is the economic success (and happiness) of our northern European neighbours of no relevance to Scots? 
Saudi Arabia is stinking rich, and a stinking cesspit of horror. Those are not my "best examples", they are yours! It was you who cited the Hong Kong dictatorship as a good model for Scotland! I look to European democracies, not far-eastern dictatorships for sound economic models for an independent Scotland. 
Neil's School Report 2: 
"Neil has now mastered the spelling of the key word in Scottish politics. However, he needs to master its contextual meaning. Please supervise young Neil's homework for tonight: write five sentences using the word "independence" correctly."

7 July 2004, 08:35:30 GMT+01:00
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David Farrer said...

Neil (
The Roman Empire concentrated wealth outrageously in the hands of the politically powerful rich (main reason why I am NOT an absolute supporter of the free market as I have said here repeatedly), reduced much of the population to slavery leading to technological stagnation, collapse & the well known Decline & Fall. 
Saudi Arabia as a go ahead economy??? 
Communist China only started becoming (phenomenally) successful when they relaxed. 
And these are your best examples. 
To get back to your point - exactly what evidence do you have that independence is of any relevance to sorting the Scots economy.

6 July 2004, 23:00:58 GMT+01:00
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Stuart Dickson (
Several ditatorships have been great at wealth creation: Roman Empire, Saudi Arabia, Communist China. (Although far, far more have been miserable economic failures.) 
Unfortunately they also excel at misery creation. Hong Kong is no exception, because the Chinese have an appaling human rights record. 
Come come. A "libertarian" advocating a communist vassal state as an appropriate model for Scotland. 
Neil's School Report: 
"Can do better"

6 July 2004, 08:57:15 GMT+01:00
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Neil (
"A pre-condition to economic growth is national self-worth and self-respect" 
An example of the triumph of the will over mere economic competence. I take it you believe that so long as Hong Kong is ruled either by Britain or China it is doomed to low growth & 3rd world poverty?

6 July 2004, 00:45:35 GMT+01:00
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Stuart Dickson (
Independence, not ...ance. 
Scots don't blame the English, we blame ourselves. No-one else is responsible for our second class status. That is what makes our subservience so sad. 
We must trade in a very big world. It doesn't help when all of our representatives, commercial and democratic, are invisible on the mental and physical maps of our potential customers. 
A pre-condition to economic growth is national self-worth and self-respect. Each time a Scot votes Labour, LibDem or Conservative they are publicly expressing their loathing of self. Devolution was the child passing through adloescence into that annoying phase of the teenager. It will soon be time to cast off those foolish things and adopt the privileges, and responsibilities, of adulthood.

5 July 2004, 22:07:08 GMT+01:00
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Neil (
You haven't actually explained why all you centrists believe independance (within or without Europe) would change our economic condition.  
I am afraid devolution has finally proven that blaming the English for everything is rather silly. 
Incidentally the difference between socialist & social democrat is that Lenin was leader of the Russian Social Democratic Party.

5 July 2004, 20:34:37 GMT+01:00
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David Farrer said...

Stuart Dickson (
Yes, the SNP are ever so slightly to the left of the labour party, you are very ill informed about the mainland European political parties if you think that the SNP are "one of the most left wing mainstream parties in Europe". 
The socialist (in reality Social Democratic) and social democrotaic parties in Sweden, Italy, Greece and France are all distincly to the left of the SNP. Also, the Greens are becoming more mainstream and are far to the left of the SNP (whitness the rise of the German Green Party). 
In the great spectrum of the European Political Parties the SNP are in fact bang in the centre. They only look left wing from the loonie right perspective of isolated Conservatives. You should see how silly you lot look from my perspective here in the centre.

5 July 2004, 17:51:53 GMT+01:00
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David Malloch (
"Scotland would create more wealth as an independent state under ANY centre-left, centrist or centre-right government than we do as a region of the UK. 
No I don't agree, left wing policies could easily weaken Scotlands economy and make it worse than it is now. I know you did say "centre left", but the SNP are one of the most left wing mainstream parties in Europe, and in many instances are more statist than (Scottish) Labour.

5 July 2004, 17:04:15 GMT+01:00