Wednesday 16 February 2005

A sign of the times

An economically literate Edinburgh bus traveller protests against the anti-capitalist mercantilist policies of the world's richest nations:


David Farrer said...

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24 February 2007, 20:26:33 GMT
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yin, twy, thry, fower...seeven... 
'leeven, twal (vowel as in swap, not hat). 
Glottal stop - not on your life. But always "can" until moved south.

18 February 2005, 14:56:24 GMT
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Stuart Dickson
... Satandard English... 
Now there is a Freudian slip, if ever I mis-wrote one!

17 February 2005, 19:51:18 GMT
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Stuart Dickson
More to the point, what did you say? 
I tended towards the glottal stop pronounciation. In fact, after counting from 5-10 a few times, I find that there still survives a bit of a glottal stop. How reassuring. 
But as an Edinburgh private schoolboy I'm sure that the full pronounciation of the "t" was encouraged at school. 
How did you pronounce 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11 and 12 in your playground? I love the way they pronounce 7 and 11 in west Fife: 
A got the number seeven bus, at eleeven minutes past seeven, tae Leven. 
I can still remember being told-off a hundred times for saying: "Can I go to the toilet?" English Standard English stipulates the use of "may" in such circumstances, but most Scots stubbornly stick to "can". For a very brief intro to the subject see Wikipedia's Scottish Satandard English entry:

17 February 2005, 19:48:16 GMT
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Neil Craig
The first Norwegian dictionary was published after they separated from Sweden so that they would know the "correct" way not to be talking Swedish. 
"A language is a dialect with it's own army" which is one reason I oppose separation.

17 February 2005, 19:14:26 GMT
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Either really. I can remember my playground 1 to 4, 7 and 11 & 12 but I'm damned if I can remember 8. PERHAPS 5, 6, 9 & 10 = standard Scottish English (supposing that there is such a thing), but what did we say for 8? I don't think it was just "eight" but it certainly wasn't "echt", because I can remember my surprise when I first heard it. More to the point, what did you say? No political agenda, just a curiosity/nostalgia thing.

17 February 2005, 15:14:44 GMT
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Stuart Dickson
I did not realise from your posting that it was my usage of the word "correct" that was upsetting you. 
I actually switched to using "standard" quite inadvertantly. 
Of course, in this context "standard" is the correct term, not "correct". How wise you are. Although you could make your points a little less obscurely. 
Anyway, no more volunteers for "eight" then? 
Are you looking for regional/historical variations on the English word "eight" or the Scots word "echt"?

17 February 2005, 14:05:21 GMT
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David Farrer said...

Ah ha, backed off from "correct" to "standard translation". What next? "Favoured in Edinburgh ruling circles in the sixteenth century?" 
Anyway, no more volunteers for "eight" then?

17 February 2005, 13:01:54 GMT
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Stuart Dickson
DSL - Scottish National Dictionary 
Also ne (Abd. 1801 W. Beattie Parings (1813) 19; Ork. 1880 Dennison Sketch-Bk. 30; Sh. 1914 Angus Gl.), na. No, not any. Gen.Sc. Also in n.Eng. dial. Sometimes found in double neg. constructions. Comb. nae evens, the name of a game. 
*Sc. 1721 J. Kelly Proverbs 270:  
Yee Hand is nee Hand; that is, one Hand. where there is no Help, can dispatch but little Work.  
*Edb. 1772 Fergusson Poems (S.T.S.) II. 98:  
Your noisy tongue, there’s nae abideint.  
*Ayr. 1768 Burns Twa Dogs 16–17:  
But tho’ he was o’ high degree The fient a pride na pride had he.  
*Sc. c.1791 Sir Andrew Barton in Child Ballads No. 167 B. 46:  
Sir Andrew called his nephew then: says, Sisters son I hi ne mae.  
*Ayr. 1793 Burns Tam o’ Shanter 67–8:  
Nae man can tether time or tide.  
*Sc. 1819 Scott Bride of Lamm. ix.:  
Truly I ken nae title they have to be yowling and howling.  
*Slk. 1819 Hogg Tales (1874) 148:  
Did you no hear them sayin’ nae ill words?  
*Uls. 1879 W. G. Lyttle Readings 38:  
She said nae mair.  
*Sh. 1916 J. Burgess Rasmie’s Smaa Murr (Jooly 26):  
A blinnd mind is hoppless, for der nae wy o trivlin.  
*Abd. 1923 Swatches o’ Hamespun 18:  
Aw houpe aul Meggie’s nae nae waur.  
*Gall. 1928 Gallovidian Annual 91:  
A ken naething aboot nae eggies.

17 February 2005, 13:00:27 GMT
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Stuart Dickson
DSL - Scottish National Dictionary 
adj., n. 
Also †tua  
DSL - Dictionary of the Older Scots Tongue 
Twa, Tua, 
Also: tway(e, twae, twai, twe(y, two(e, twy, tw, tuay(e, tuaie, tuae, tue(y, tuo(e, tu, thua(y, thwa, thowa, tow(e, too, tou, ta. [ME and e.m.E. twa, to (both 1154), twæʒe (c1175), two (c1200), twey (c1275), tua(i, tuay, tuo (all Cursor M.), tow (14th c.), too (c1400), thow (1422), towe (1536), OE twá, tú, MDu. twee, MLG twô, twu, twê.] The cardinal number two. Also denoted by 2 or ii.

17 February 2005, 12:55:43 GMT
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Stuart Dickson
Why should there be one unique way of spelling the English word "eight"? 
Please refer to Scottish Language Dictionaries: 
... and Dictionar o the Scots Leid: 
Yes, the Scots word "twa" is the standard translation of the English "two". "Twy" may be a regional variation. Look it up and educate yourself.

17 February 2005, 12:49:23 GMT
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"the correct Scots translation"? Says who? And why would there be a unique one anyway? You'll be telling me next that the correct Scots for two is "twa", but it was "twy" in my playground.

17 February 2005, 12:20:00 GMT
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Andrew Ian Dodge
How rubbish...and incredibly daft.

17 February 2005, 12:02:18 GMT
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Stuart Dickson
Echt is the correct Scots translation of the English word eight. The "ch" is pronounced as in "loch". I am delighted to hear that our indigenous language still survives in the Stewartry. 
However, it still doesn't rhyme with mistake! 
The "8" of "G8" is probably pronounced with a glottal stop in this example, as is the wont of many urban Scots, especially males. 
However, even that doesn't rhyme with mistake. 
Maybe it's not meant to rhyme. It is actually a powerful, poetic statement without a rhyme.

16 February 2005, 20:03:07 GMT
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Does this loon suppose 8 rhymes with mistake? Come to that, how did you pronounce 8 when you were a wee laddie in the playground? I've heard "echt" in The Stewartry.

16 February 2005, 16:49:54 GMT